The California gay tantrum
Protests continued Friday in several California cities, including San Francisco, Palm Springs and Long Beach, over the passage of Proposition 8, which outlaws same-sex marriage.This story tends to downplay the emotional reaction of some gay rights groups to losing the election on the issue of gay marriage. Mark Steyn found these reactions:The ballot initiative, which passed 52.5 percent to 47.5 percent Tuesday, overturns a May ruling by the California Supreme Court that struck down a 2000 ban on same-sex unions.
In San Francisco, an estimated 2,000 protesters marched down Market Street toward Dolores Park. The march stretched out for at least three city blocks, and the protesters completely blocked Market Street's westbound lanes and the eastbound lanes in places.
"I believe that politics and religion should be completely separate," protester Eric Rogers told CNN affiliate KGO-TV. "This has been, actually, one of those lines that has been blurred by that."
"It really feels personal. It feels like why would someone not want us to live in love and respect," said protester Jayne Dean-McGilpin.
A demonstration in Long Beach stretched out for five or six blocks. "Hate is not hot," read a banner at the front of the marchers.
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In Palm Springs, a crowd of several hundred gathered in front of the city hall, chanting "Civil rights" and "Tax the Church." One sign read: "We will not give up." iReport.com: Your thoughts on gay marriage?
Several protesters surrounded an elderly looking woman, an apparent Proposition 8 supporter, and shouted at her. No arrests were reported at any of the demonstrations.
In Salt Lake City, Utah, about 2,000 demonstrators gathered at Temple Square to protest against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Mormon church strongly supported Proposition 8, which amends California's constitution to define marriage as legal only between one man and one woman.
Proposition 8 opponents say the Salt Lake City-based church donated a majority of the money raised in support of the measure.
The LDS Church believes it should not be singled out when other groups also supported the proposition.
"It is disturbing that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is being singled out for speaking up as part of its democratic right in a free election," the church said in a statement Friday.
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It should be pointed out that these tantrums appear to be limited to California. Gay marriage was also defeated in Arizona and Florida. It has lost in 30 states so far.I must say I thought this guy's sign was pretty funny:
Daniel Ginnes carried a banner declaring: "No More Mr Nice Gay."
But some of these other post-Prop 8 ructions are surreal:
Unfortunately the "blame the blacks" meme is being commonly accepted by some so-called "progressive" gay activists. A number of Rod 2.0 and Jasmyne Cannick readers report being subjected to taunts, threats and racist abuse... Geoffrey was called the n-word at least twice.
It was like being at a klan rally except the klansmen were wearing Abercrombie polos and Birkenstocks. YOU N*GGER, one man shouted at me. If your people want to call me a F*GGOT, I will call you a n*gger... A young WeHo clone said after last night the n*ggers better not come to West Hollywood if they knew what was BEST for them.
The media were warning that if the election went the wrong way there'd be riots, but I didn't realize they meant Klansmen in Abercrombie polos roaming West Hollywood itching for a rumble.
There is something ironic in suggesting that a referendum is not the proper forum for deciding the legality of gay marriage and that it should be decided in the legislature. If the proponents had gone through the legislature rather than the courts they probably would not have been confronted by a referendum. By using judicial fiat they prompted the referendum.
It is also ironic that two large Democrat voting blocks were much more significant to the results than the Mormon Church. Blacks and Hispanics, who were part of the large Obama turnout, provided the margin of victory and that is why some gays were hurling insults at them.
Ultimately gay marriage is an emotional issue for both sides. If you strip it of emotion there is really no need for gay couples to need the states blessings to form a union. They gain no material benefit that does not already exist in civil unions and other contractual relationships.
I think the yearning for emotional aspects of calling oneself married, is a yearning to be considered normal. For many their religious beliefs cannot permit them to accept a gay relationship as normal even if they do accept it on some other level. That is what the fight is really all about and that is why the tantrums are so counter productive.
The author of this post needs to do some serious research before swallowing the political talking points of the Prop 8 supporters.
ReplyDeleteYou stated in your post that gay couples should essentially back off, as they "...gain no material benefit that does not already exist in civil unions and other contractual relationships."
This is completely false. This is the talking point that was used by the Prop 8 folks to convince residents of California that Separate but Equal is OK.
1. FACT: Unless the specific term marriage is used, the federal government will not at any level recognize your relationship. The United States of America does not recognize civil unions.
2. FACT: Unless the term marriage is used, a United States citizen cannot sponsor his or her spouse for immigration into this country.
3. FACT: Unless the term marriage is used, couples are prevented from filing joint tax returns. Again, the U.S. only recognizes marriage...not civil unions.
4. FACT: The General Accounting Office in 1997 released a list of 1,049 benefits and protections available to heterosexual married couples. These benefits range from federal benefits, such as survivor benefits through Social Security, sick leave to care for ailing partner, tax breaks, veterans benefits and insurance breaks. They also include things like family discounts, obtaining family insurance through your employer, visiting your spouse in the hospital and making medical decisions if your partner is unable to. Civil Unions protect some of these rights, but not all of them.
5. FACT: Through a civil contract, which costs thousands of dollars to have an attorney draw up, a couple can easily have their contract challenged in court. As a matter of fact, more wills are challenged than not. In the case of wills, legal spouses always have more legal power than any other family member.
6. FACT: Marriage laws are universal. If someone’s husband or wife is injured in an accident, all you need to do is show up and say you’re his or her spouse. You will not be questioned. If you show up at the hospital with your legal paperwork, the employees may not know what to do with you. If you simply say, "He's my husband," you will immediately be taken to your spouse's side.
I hope that helps to explain to the misinformed author WHY the term marriage is important. This has a lot more to do with simply using one word over another.
Separate but Equal is *NEVER* OK.
I think i have to respond:
ReplyDeleteI'm not a religious person. However, I pay the same taxes as every other working adult in my bracket--I am entitled to equal representation under the law. It's not an emotional issue, it's a fairness issue. It's an issue of keeping religion out of Washington DC--one of the foundational tenets of the USA.
America is not, in theory, a theocracy.
Though gay marriage supporters did not win in California, they have reason to hope.
ReplyDeleteIn 2000 same sex marriage issue was defeated by 61.4% to 38% vote. a 23 percent difference
8 years later that gap had narrowed to
52.47% in favor of Proposition 8 and 47.53% against.
a 5 percent difference.
Like many Californians I voted against same sex marriage the first time around. 8 years ago it seemed a foreign idea.
This time I changed my vote this .
I think as time goes on people everywhere are becoming more tolerant and less threatened by gays. Live and let live.
Like interracial marriage, which was once condemned from the pulpit, same sex marriage will soon become an accepted fact of life in America. That's the trend I think
I’ve struggled with the interpretation of moral values for most of my life. Since early childhood, we are taught at an early age to shun, discriminate against anyone that doesn’t fit our own set of personal moral values, rather it be race, creed, sexual orientation, and a long list of others.
ReplyDeleteThat is a long time of implied views on what shapes our character, views of other minorities, and the bigotries we instill in our own set of moral values. In trying to understand others view point, you can’t help but to project your own views of what you are feeling at the time.
If you aren’t subjugated to discrimination you are more likely to discriminate. If you are discriminated against, you are less likely to project discrimination on others. Boy was I wrong! It seems to me that the ones that were discriminated against are turning to discriminating against other minorities, which is sad! Forget not whence ye came!
You don’t have to look far back in history to view rampant racism, bigotry, but does it still exist? The answer is sadly, yes! Even though this year we have elected our first black president, our racism, bigotry, prejudices are still visible. The votes on prop 8, Arizona & Florida were sadly, a reminder to me that we as a people have come a long way, but still have very far to go!
What it gives us is hope for the future. America does show, however, the remarkable achievement of the civil rights movement and King’s achievement of equality for blacks, there is hope for all. We as a people looked past race, stereotypes, bigotry, and our own misguided prejudice to elect this wonderful man to lead our great nation!
Some people have the luxury of never being discriminated against, count your blessings, others have to endure it on a daily basis. Which I have come to realize makes us stronger and more in tune to overcome challenges we face. My partner and I of 14 years have no intention on marrying, but we don’t have that option to choose, if we did! Some say marriage is an institution, but most end in divorce, which is against the very principle of marriage in the first place. When two people are joined as one how can they separate?
I’ve struggled with the interpretation of moral values for most of my life. Since early childhood, we are taught at an early age to shun, discriminate against anyone that doesn’t fit our own set of personal moral values, rather it be race, creed, sexual orientation, and a long list of others.
ReplyDeleteThat is a long time of implied views on what shapes our character, views of other minorities, and the bigotries we instill in our own set of moral values. In trying to understand others view point, you can’t help but to project your own views of what you are feeling at the time.
If you aren’t subjugated to discrimination you are more likely to discriminate. If you are discriminated against, you are less likely to project discrimination on others. Boy was I wrong! It seems to me that the ones that were discriminated against are turning to discriminating against other minorities, which is sad! Forget not whence ye came!
You don’t have to look far back in history to view rampant racism, bigotry, but does it still exist? The answer is sadly, yes! Even though this year we have elected our first black president, our racism, bigotry, prejudices are still visible. The votes on prop 8, Arizona & Florida were sadly, a reminder to me that we as a people have come a long way, but still have very far to go!
What it gives us is hope for the future. America does show, however, the remarkable achievement of the civil rights movement and King’s achievement of equality for blacks, there is hope for all. We as a people looked past race, stereotypes, bigotry, and our own misguided prejudice to elect this wonderful man to lead our great nation!
Some people have the luxury of never being discriminated against, count your blessings, others have to endure it on a daily basis. Which I have come to realize makes us stronger and more in tune to overcome challenges we face. My partner and I of 14 years have no intention on marrying, but we don’t have that option to choose, if we did! Some say marriage is an institution, but most end in divorce, which is against the very principle of marriage in the first place. When two people are joined as one how can they separate?
You homosexuals are a real buch of pansies. Everybody voted, and the decision has been made. You lose!, Suck it up! Stop your whining! Better luck next time.
ReplyDeleteI guess if straight marriage was outlawed, the straight people should just "suck it up!" Get a life stupid!
ReplyDeleteI was stunned to hear that 70%+ of Blacks & Hispanics supported Prop 8, Arizona & Florida! If it is that easy to discriminate against your fellow minority, how easy will it be for a right wing activist to put on a ballot to discriminate against Blacks & Hispanics. Over-turn State statutes, State courts, hell even Federal statutes! Blacks & Hispanics forget they are 13% & 15% minorities! We must stick together as minorities, not put wedge issues between us.
ReplyDeleteBlacks are quick to say that it isn’t the same struggle, but it is, whether they admit it or not! Discrimination is what it is, Discrimination! White churches still speak out against Blacks, doesn’t make it right, so I’m quick to defend Black interests! Not anymore, what they showed me on Prop 8 is they only care for themselves! Blacks have come along way in 40+ years, but it doesn’t take long to fall, either!
Without the support of other minorities and Whites that have compassion on Blacks & Hispanics struggles, you wouldn’t be where you are today! Think about that when you allow bigotry & prejudices to influence your lives! With Prop 8 so easily crafted to throw out a State Supreme Court ruling, how easy will it be for them to throw out Civil Rights legislation? Didn’t think about that, did you? Black & Hispanics have lost my voice for their causes and their struggles! End Affirmative action, control our boarders, and throw them all out on their ears!
What there needs to be is a Federal Amendment to ban special interest ballots or ballots all together! I also noticed Abortion Bans on several State ballots, but they didn’t pass!
Lets put religion aside and look at this scientifically. Genders evolved because it both accelerates evolution and makes evolution more efficient. Sexual attraction then evolved as a result to motivate us to make babies with the opposite gender in a sole effort to perpetuate our race. Homosexuality, like impotence or infertility, prevents a person (is an obstacle) from using sexual attraction to perpetuate the human race and is therefore a sexual dysfunction. Our laws shouldn't be based on religious beliefs but rather what helps progress and perpetuate our race and society. Unfortunately homosexuality hinders that. I'll explain further cuz I truely am trying to look at this objectively from an unbiased standpoint. If we all were gay and entered into monogamous gay relationships our race would cease to exist in ONE generation, the same as if we were ALL infertile. No argument can refute this. I know people can live satisfactory lives with this dysfunction, and its their right to choose to live with it, but it doesn't mean its any less debilitating to the true purpose of sexual attraction.
ReplyDeleteLegislation protecting gay marriage and accepting it as a "norm" or "standard" would hinder us as a society from finding a future cure. Many might be happy being gay but not all people are. The ones that aren't happy being gay and recognize that its an misdirected sexual orientation aren't the ones crowding the streets yelling at everyone. You may not associate with these people that want their sexual attraction appropriately focused towards the opposite gender, but don't be so selfish as to hurt their chances for obtaining a cure. After all, no matter how prop 8 goes, gays will still have the rights to live however they want, be happy however they please!
In all reality prop 8 doesn't target gays; it targets marriage which places the same limitations on ALL of us!!! In fact I know gays that are married to people of the opposite gender, usually a best friend. These gay people enjoy all the tax benefits as any heterosexual. Gays need to understand that I have the same limitations, as a heterosexual, to marriage as they do. I cannot marry another man, I can only marry a woman, period! I may not want to, because of my sexual orientation, but the point is the law TREATS ME the SAME as it does YOU! which means that prop 8 is not an amendment of bigotry. Now boycotting a whole state to HURT ONE faction of the population. Thats Bigotry!
Oh, and the LDS church didn't donate money to "Yes" on 8.... its members did! BIG DIFFERENCE! Nor did the LDS church support a political party or candidate, only a principle, soooo sorry but you won't see them losing tax status any time soon.
Clark --
ReplyDeleteYou're absolutely right. Let's put religion aside and look at this from a scientific viewpoint.
1. Documented cases of gay animals, both in the wild and in zoos, exist on a VERY broad scale. In the best documented cases, such as those including animals that form monogamous, lifelong commitments, these gay animals have (penguins at a zoo, for example) stayed together for their entire life.
2. The ENTIRE accredited psychological (American Psychological Association), psychiatric (American Psychiatric Association), and medical community has agreed for more than 20 years now that homosexuality is not a choice, nor is it something that can be changed. Rather, they agree that it is something that occurs naturally. Your view was debunked DECADES ago by doctors.
3. The old argument about gays not being able to reproduce? Really, Clark? Are you seriously suggesting that the gay population, which by all estimates accounts for approximately five percent of the world's population (a number that will never increase or decrease), will somehow bring about an end to the human race because there will potentially be five percent fewer babies from us?
Are you seriously suggesting, Clark, that the human race is in danger of extinction? We actually NEED more babies on this planet, and the gay population is doing humankind some sort of monumental disservice by not adding to the massive overpopulation now surpassing the SIX BILLION mark that has reached a level where we cannot even feed all the children that currently exist?
Would you support revoking marriage status for any heterosexual couples that do not reproduce and continue to reproduce throughout their entire marriage? Remember, Clark, our planet is in peril! We need more babies, and we need them NOW! We can't wait!
Really, you HAVE to be kidding.
4. You claim that because "some" gay people are unhappy, it is a sign that they realize they are in a misguided lifestyle of some sort. Have you considered for a moment that many gay people might find themselves frustrated not at their lifestyle, but instead at the plight towards moving in the direction of equal rights?
Would you have claimed 50 years ago that interracial couples suffering from heightened levels of political activism and couples who were depressed at the status of our society for banning their relationships were thereby acknowledging that their relationships were going "down the wrong path?"
Would you have claimed 40 years ago that African-Americans were only angry, depressed or feeling disenfranchised because they were trying to push their "sub-race" upon the rest of the country as a "normal" person?
Clark, if you want to use science to back your argument, then USE SCIENCE. What you used were old, dried up stereotypes, talking points and ultra-social-conservative banter that became yesterday's news in 1985.
The fact of the matter is that people such as yourself, who veil their bigotry and prejudice in some sort of failed attempt to appear concerned about the future of the human race itself, simply cannot come to the table with a single, legitimate reason that two consenting adults in a loving relationship should not be afforded the exact treatment under the law as other couples.
Gay marriage has been legal for years now in Massachusetts and decades, in some cases, in parts of Europe. At this point, the United States is virtually the ONLY Western, civilized country that does not recognize gay relationships.
I suppose that people such as yourself, Clark, can take solace in knowing that at this stage, only the general populations of people in places such as Pakistan, Zimbabwe or the Russian Federation share your antiquated views.
As a secondary, followup comment, I should also enlighten Clark on LDS' participation in Prop 8.
ReplyDeleteClark, once again incorrectly purporting to promote facts that are in reality fiction, claims that the LDS church itself "...didn't donate money to 'Yes' on 8."
Really, Clark? Would you perhaps mind telling me how campaign finance records show that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" made a donation of $2,078.97 on October 25, 2008 to ProtectMarriage.com (Yes on Prop 8)?
That is NOT a donation coming from members. That is a donation directly from, and in the name of the mother church itself.
Further, there are reports from news sources (ranging from local papers in California all the way to ABC news) where LDS members themselves came forward under extreme frustration to complain that they were threatened with excommunication should they refuse to donate to Yes on 8.
Clark, like most people who voted for Prop 8 is a victim of ingrained bigotry. There is no reasoning with people suffering from this condition. Only personal experience will change their point of view. Until then it is up to the Courts to protect the rights of the minorities.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand a different tact might be useful to get their attention on what discrimination may mean to them.
This was tried several years ago but got no where because of a lack of funds.
The gay and gay friendly voting blocs need to get together and craft an "Amendment" to the California constitution that requires ALL MARRIED COUPLES to NATURALLY produce a Child in order to be valid. Failure to procreate invalidates the marriage and all rights devolving from the marriage.
This has several effects:
50 percent of all Hetero marriages end in divorce, and since at least half of those fail to produce children they will no longer be legally wed.
More than 75 percent of second (or third) marriages don't produce offspring-again they won't be legally wed
Marriages between Seniors would not take place for economic gain since they cant breed.
Older men would be forced to wed younger women to get the rights of marriage.
Older women would be almost completely disenfranchised, but so what they just cant reproduce so the law is not at fault, biology is.
The LGBT community and their supporters need to turn out in record numbers to get this on the ballot.
they need to copy Obama's internet and grassroots campaign practices to get funding to promote this acrosss the state.
Lets hear the screams from the Prop 8 churches and supporters as their rights are stripped away for no reason other than bigotry.